About Sounding Off

Ted Robinson of NBCSports.com fires away on what’s making news in Major League Baseball, the National Football League and professional tennis.

Robinson called the play-by-play on NBC's Major League Baseball Game of the Week telecasts from 1986-89. Additionally, he has done play-by-play for the Minnesota Twins, San Francisco Giants, and New York Mets. Since 2000 Robinson has provided play-by-play for NBC Sports on the French Open and Wimbledon. He also previously served in that role at the U.S. Open for USA Network. Robinson is also the play-by-play voice of the San Francisco 49ers on KNBR.



Federer not yet best ever

Posted: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 6:19 PM

 

In the aftermath of Rafael Nadal’s Australian Open victory has come the anticipated analysis of the balance of power in tennis. And the place, both present and future, in which Roger Federer belongs.

There are 2 questions:

1) Is Federer the best player of all-time?

2) Is Federer done as a top threat to win majors? Which can be rephrased -- will he break Pete Sampras’ record of 14 Grand Slams? Federer has 13.

Addressing the first question is of little interest to me but I acknowledge its relevance in the world of chat rooms, talk radio and other areas where arguments reign.

My problem is in trying to compare players from eras that differ dramatically in both surface and equipment. How can anyone intelligently compare Rod Laver, playing with a wood racquet and on two Slam surfaces (clay at the French Open and grass at the other Slams), with Nadal, who is using modern racquet technology and playing on four  Slam surfaces (the Australian is much slower than the U.S. Open hard courts)?

 

Could anyone ever have imagined that the U.S. Open on a hard court would be considered a faster surface than Wimbledon? Could anyone have imagined that the Australian Open, an event many of the greats of past eras skipped altogether or played sporadically, would become a must-play championship? There is no resemblance between the game of the 1960s and 1970s and the game of today.

           

So allow me to attack this issue from a slightly different angle. Let’s look at Federer in areas that don’t relate to equipment and surface.

 

His biggest similarity is with Sampras. Both dominated Wimbledon, both excelled at the U.S. Open and both had a barrier at the French Open. Both had astoundingly long reigns ranked No. 1.

Two differences: Sampras had the better of his main rival (Andre Agassi) while Federer has come up short overall against Nadal and Federer has proven himself the No. 2 player at the French Open, reaching three finals and only losing to Nadal, the greatest clay-court player of all time, (yes, I will make that judgment now) while Sampras was never a threat at the French Open, only once reaching the semifinals.

 

Sampras’ barrier was a surface, not a player. Borg is like Federer in that he had an event (U.S. Open) and a player (John McEnroe, who denied Borg in his last two major finals) to overcome. Can Borg, dominant at two Slams, receive a nod over Federer despite never winning the Australian or U.S. Opens?

 

The other greats in the conversation (Johnny McEnroe, Jimmy Connors, Agassi and Ivan Lendl) don’t have the numbers to match Federer, Sampras and Borg or the quality of Rod Laver, who achieved a calendar year Grand Slam in 1969.

 

So if Federer’s career were to end today, perhaps the answer would be the rival. Sampras bowed to no man while Federer is clearly stymied by Nadal. It’s a nitpick for Nadal has much tennis to play before his career matches Federer’s. But in such arguments, picking nits is often as sensible an approach as any.

 

My take is that the answer to whether Federer is the greatest player ever is directly tied to question No. 2. Is Federer’s reign atop the sport ending?

 

There are two facts that continue to dominate my thinking:  1) Federer has played in 14 of the last 15 Slam finals. He has played in the last four, which ties Laver and Agassi for the second longest streak in the Open Era. The longest streak is Federer’s 10, which ended at the 2008 Australian Open. 2) Federer has reached the semifinals in the last 19 Slams. The next longest streak in the Open Era is 10 by Ivan Lendl.

 

So here are two achievements, unprecedented in modern tennis history that are STILL ACTIVE. Federer’s excellence is such that he has not merely surpassed but blown away the previous record holders.

 

How can anyone look at these feats and definitively declare Federer is done? He has one problem -- Nadal.

 

The problem is significant. And there is ample reason to wonder when Federer can win Grand Slam title No. 14. Patrick McEnroe is one of the wisest and rational voices in tennis. I read his post-Aussie comments that Federer “succumbed to the pressure. The guy (Nadal) is in his head and it’s going to be hard for him to come back from this.”

 

Hours after the still unmatched Wimbledon final, Johnny McEnroe offered his concern that a loss like that could take a year off Federer’s career.

Federer is hardly done but at 27 we watch him more closely now than ever before. He has been remarkable in his avoidance of injury (the one area in which he outshines Nadal) and has spoken of his desire to play into his 30s. Sampras won his last Wimbledon one month shy of turning 29 and his last major at 31. Agassi was still a threat in those years and we know that Nadal must prove that he can hold up to be the long-term rival for Federer.

Patrick McEnroe said he believes Federer “needs a coach…but he’s so stubborn.” If he wants to pass Sampras and earn the unofficial greatest player ever honor, Federer needs to decide if he can slay Nadal on his own. For Federer must find a way to take Nadal down in at least one major to silence the one doubt about the Swiss ace that exists in the minds of all: greatest ever?

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I dont think Federer can ever be considered the greatest ever because of the lack of great playersin mens tennis.  There are alot of good ones.  When Sampras won his first grand slam and he had be beat players with a total of 24 grand slam championships to their credit.  Federer only has to beat Roddick with one grand slam to his name and the worst backhand in mens tennis and Nadal and he cannot beat Nadal.  Sampras had to beat some of the greatest players ever to win his grand slams.  Who does Federer have to beat?  Who in the last 4 years in Mens tennis will make the hall of fame?  Sampras had to beat at least 10 or more that have already made it.
The real question is what would have ocurred if federer and nadal were the same age?//we can only ponder this// as for sampras and federer, federer clearly stands above him,even now on the basis of his results at the french open by losing to the greatest clay court player ever in some very close matches and even beating nadal once on clay
I agree 100% with Mr. Robinson's comments about Roger, Roger should have won that match but in the 1st set when he had Nadal down at 4-2, Federer decides to serve and volley! result? he got passed and Nadal got the confidence back and Roger Lost his. Yes he is in dire need of a coach, but who? John Mc Enroe. Roger needs to be more aggressive, john will get him aggressive.
"For Federer must find a way to take Nadal down in at least one major to silence the one doubt about the Swiss ace that exists in the minds of all: greatest ever?"

He's done that twice already - Wimbledon 06 and 07.  
2006 and 2007 Wimbledon - Federer defeats Nadal.  Do you mean Federer is only the best if he can beat Nadal AGAIN in a Grand Slam?
nice blog ted!  
you brought up a lot of interesting, worthwhile points in your argument, which i agree with completely.

i'm also in total agreement with Pat McEnroe's statements.  Fed INDEED needs a coach and needs to get one PRONTO, or else he may NEVER win another slam this year. my dad thinks that if fed doesn't solve his problems with nadal before the year is up, he might retire from the sport.
Good analysis of the Federer situation and a look at how he compares to past players. Only quibble I have with most of these GOAT discussions is the absence of Pancho Gonzales in the mix. He dominated the pro tour for over a decade (where by far the best players were in pre-open years) and then played on into his 40's when the open era arrived. During those later years, he reached the semis of the French and the quarters of Wimbledon, and had wins over such players as Laver, Borg, Connors, Ash, Newcomb and other top players. Won his last tournament at age 44. When an interviewer once asked Connors whether Borg or McEnroe was the greatest player he ever faced, Connors replied they were tied for second behind Pancho Gonzales. I believe he was spot on.
Once again this is ridiculous....akin to the hype surrounding LeBron James who has yet to win even ONE championship...and is yet favorably compared to Michael Jordan, who won six and could have won nine . Federer is still in his peak years, and hasn't beaten Rafa Nadal in the three straight Grand Slam events they've played. How can he be the best of all time? Obviously, right now, Nadal is better, and has four more grand slam titles than Federer had at the same age. For my money, it's who is best for the era he played in, and there is no doubt that is Rod Laver.
I do not think Federer can or will be regsrded as the greatest of all time unless he (a) beats Nadal on clay at the French Open and (b) beats him consistently on tour and regains the air of invincibility that he once possessed.

I also do not think he is as good a player as Sampras was. My contention is that he achieved that status because there was really no one on tour to challenge him...until Nadal, whereas when Sampras was playing we still had Conners, Courier, Chang, Agassi, Cash, Kraichek (sic), Stich,kafelnikov on tour. These players were, in my opinion, superior to the players that Federer was competing against. I doubt if he were playing against players of that calibre that he would have won as many majors as he has. Notwithstanding, I think he will eventually get to 14, maybe 15, but not more than that. I think the most likely place where he'll get it will be at Wimbledon despite the recent loss to Nadal. However, now that Nadal has won his first Major on Hard Court, he may be the one to dominate on all four surfaces. My prediction: If Nadal repeats as French Open Champion, repeats as Wimbledon Champion, and then wins The U.S. Open, Federer will not recover. Nadal has proved he isn't a one surface player by winning on three of four surfaces. If he wins the U.S. Open he will be right up there with the greats, overshadowing Federer.
It doesn't seem to me that all routes to nitpicking a player's career are equal.  Federer has been amazing for so long and is tied with Sampras in Grand Slam events.  Judging him on how well he plays against Nadal is measuring a guy who has several more years of wear and tear on his body against a younger, very fit, opponent.  It seems to me that Federer owned nearly all those who started when he did but can't solve Nadal.  Notice - neither can anyone else.  When Nadal is 30 and a great 20 year old comes along and ends up with a winning record against him, will it be fair to say that he didn't dominate his rival so he is not great?  No, his rivals are those his age and one or two years older. Federer and Nadal, despite the closeness of their ages, are from two different tennis generations.
yes, Roger is on the verge to become the best player of  all time.  To solve Nadal, Roger needs to maintain a higher percentage of 1st serve, be more aggressive and mix it up on Nadal's 2nd serve and be more aggressive on break pts.  Roger should have won the Australian open if he won one break pt (out of 5 break pts) in the 3rd set. Roger needs to make some minor changes in his game next time he plays Nadal, that's all.  All these dire predictions for Roger is over-blown.
a very good analysis of Federer's place in tennis history.  Gamewise, I feel that for Federer to gain an upper hand over Nadal, he would have to make his backhand more lethal than  that of Nadal.   One of Nadal's lethal weapons is to attack Federer's backhand; this has worked well.
I think Nadal will have circumvented Federer when the things have been settled.
Its mental at this point. He needs coach and belief that he can out do him. We all know he can. He won more points in the game than Nadal. What he needs to do is to first acknowledge the fact that NADAL is better than where he puts him to be. NADAL is not better than FEDERER but FEDERER needs to acknowledge that NADAL is higher then where FEDERER puts him. NADAL does not quit and FEDERER for some reason wants his OPPONENT to quit. He has to change that expecation in each and every point that you play against NADAL. THen you will nail him. Because at the end of the day, he does not have more shots than Federer although he is CLose, very Close.
There is one area that is not addressed in this article, which is the overall level of competition in the tennis field. Other than Nadal, what men's player of the 2000s could rank in the top ten of any past eras? Arguably, none. Meanwhile, Sampras played with Jim Courier, Stephan Edberg, Mats Wilander, Andre Agassi, Boris Becker, Ivan Lendl and on and on. You can't possibly consider other measurements (consecutive finals, etc.) without looking at who is in a player's field. By this measurement, Sampras will always outshine Federer.
I still respect Laver as the greatest of all time but I would put Federer at number two.  No other player has shown the versatility and consistency that Federer has shown (Rafa could do this).  He had major winning streaks at three of the four grandslams and also has made it to the final of the French consistently.  He has more versatility than Pete.  Pete won 14 Grandslams, nothing to scoff at, but 7 of the 14 were at Wimbledon.  Federer's 13 is almost evenly distributed showing that he is a better all court player.  The problem is Nadal has a key for Federer's game.  It's not like everyone does, only Nadal does.  While people always bring up Agassi for Sampras, remember Agassi went AWOL for a couple years before seriously contending with Sampras.  Also, Sampras didn't have to face his true nemesis (Richard Krajicek) as frequently as Roger has.  Pete Sampras probably wouldn't look as good if he had to face Richard Krajicek more often.  At one point Pete was 2-6 against Richard and despite winning their last two matches left the game with a 4-6 losing record.  Federer has the unfortunate situation where his greatest nemesis is the one player he has to go through the most to win titles despite having advantages against everyone else.  I would also like to point out that Federer and Nadal meet more frequently on clay than any other surface. Perhaps, if there were more big events on grass and Nadal and Federer squared off in these events the rivalry would be more even.  10 of their 19 encounters have been on clay with Federer winning only one.  They have played each other on grass 3 times with Federer winning two and on hardcourts 6 times with Federer winning three so Nadal though winning Wimbledon and the Australian Open recently gets his huge advantage in the head to head on clay.  Eliminate the clay and Federer actually leads the rivalry 5-4.  Also, as far as Sampras having to face so many great players, many of the players listed were past there prime during Sampras dominance of the game.  Also, some credit must be given to Federer for not allowing other players to build up their resumes.  Not only did Federer win grandslams but he and Nadal won nearly every major event in between. I don't think that's a lack of competition but outstanding effort from Nadal and Federer.  I mean it wasn't too long ago that people thought the Safin's and Roddick's were going to dominate tennis for years to come.  Well Federer definitely changed that.    
First of all, you all should be aware of comparing group of players from different ages, it's just impossible and this is just suppositions. You can't say for example that the best players today are not as good as the ones when Sampras played the tour, sorry but... that's a non sense comparaison. That beeing said, the only thing that we know for now is that, if you look at videos, Roger Federer is the one that brought the game higher in terms of technicality level in the history, no doubt about it and every specialists will say the same thing. He is just near perfect in every shot in terms ob biomechanics analysis.

By the end, anyway, there is just one objective way to compare players and this is by stats... but there will never be a player that will get every record of the game... If we decide to compare on grand slam, then Sampras is the best, but the basis record we choose is subjective too... so we are in $"/$%$/.

For my point of vue, i think that Federer at his peak is the better player to watch because he can make shots nobody, even Nadal, can do. Is you look at his biomechanics analysis, there is no one on tour that is as much effective as Federer.

Thanks

Oh that serve..that serve. I idolize Federer and was bored watching Sampras..but.but..Sampras's serve looks better and better the longer he is retired. What a weapon it was. Head to head , same age, any surface but clay who is the likely winner between Sampras and my hero Federer?I sadly have to say Sampras because of that serve. Sampras just looks more dominant to me the longer he is gone. He is fine wine. PS that was tough for me to say because Federer is much more fun to watch..what an athlete, what a gentleman federer is!
This is a crazy argument, if the only thing standing btw Fed being GOAT is his record with Nadal. The anti Fed GOATship need more arguments. Fed is easily best of hie Era and indeed GOAT. His appearance in GS finals is testimony. Fed changed the sport and as a result made the players of his era seem average. the Murray's and Djokovi's are all the better for it. The sport has never had a top four as it does now. The fact that others haven't caught up is not Fed's fualt. The previous era kings probably would not have been so esteemed if they played in the new tennis technique introduced by the Fed era.
mary c. and John mc enroe wimby high lights sun 6/28/9
need to learn Canary islands have nothing to do with birds. Name is from canaris latin for dogs (canine) that were bred there 1000's of years ago. They should not test their ignorance on subjects they know nothing about. Richard A. koerner Riverside Ca
Ted should retire from tennis and go back to baseball.  

The best player of all time doesn't need to have the best of all shots or be best on all surfaces (best forehand, best backhand, best serve, best on clay, best on grass, etc).  The best player of all time has the best overall tennis game as compared to others'.  

I think most would agree that Roger is the second best player in the world on clay.  Could you ever have said that about Sampras?  Not even close.  Sampras often lost to random lower-ranked people on clay, whereas Roger has been more consistent in making it to many clay tourney finals and losing to Nadal, who most people agree is the best man on clay (perhaps ever).  Should Roger's status in the "best all-time" debate suffer for that?  

So let's examine Roger's head-to-head record against Rafa.  Slight advantage to Roger on grass.  Even-steven on hard court.  Way skewed toward Rafa on clay.  Perhaps if Rafa and Fed met more often on hard court and grass, the results might be more equitable.  But the fact is that the majority of the times they've played, it's been on clay.  And Rafa is at his best on clay.

Had Sampras been in the running at the French on more than one occasion, then there's a legit argument to be made vis-a-vis Fed.  Now I'm a huge Sampras fan, but this one is not even close.
Roger Federer WILL NEVER be really #1 til he beats NADAL ,,,,MORE than Nadal beat him,,,,,Nadal will be back,,,,,I don ever think Federer will be able to beat Nadal ,,,at Nadals best,,,,Federer just doesn't have enough,,,,,Ture, Nadal will hurt himself,,,again and again,,,,,but Federer will NEVER beat Nadal at Nadals best,,,,i will bet anyone  $100 to $50.   Nadal is the best EVER,,,as long as he can play st his best,,,,,TheMagicmn@AOL.com,,,,,,,,,,,CHAD
I've been telling this to people for years.  Federer, while a fabulous champion, should never, ever go down as the greatest.  The players he's faced in road to his 15 slams is far inferior to anyone in the history of Grand slam wins.

The lack of competition in Mens tennis is horrid these days.  Sampras played against one of the strongest fields in Men's professional tennis ever and came away with 14 Slam titles, and dominated players that would steamroll todays players. Federer has played the likes of Fernando Gonzalez and a tired 35 year old Agassi and Roddick several times when Roddick couldn't hit a backhand to save his life.  None of the player's he's beaten to win his titles, other than Agassi have amounted to anything.

Federer is a fantastic player and in an era like Pete played in, he would have 6 or 7 Slam titles to be sure, but there is no way he would have amassed 15 if there was more players like Nadal in Men's tennis.

Men's tennis sucks and has since Pete and Andre retired.


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