ABOUT AT BAT

MSNBC.com baseball analyst Ted Robinson gives his take on the hits and misses by players, managers, umpires and owners in Major League Baseball.

Robinson has an extensive background in covering the sport. He called the play-by-play on NBC's Major League Baseball Game of the Week telecasts from 1986-89. Additionally, he has been the lead play-by-play announcer for the Minnesota Twins, the television and radio play-by-play voice of the San Francisco Giants, and a member of the New York Mets broadcast team.



Giants face a tough call on Lincecum

Posted: Friday, August 08, 2008 10:12 AM

 Something to watch over the final six weeks of the season is how the Giants use Tim Lincecum.

 

Fascinating scenario: About two weeks ago Lincecum and Brandon Webb dueled through seven innings. The Giants led 3-2 behind Lincecum’s 13 strikeouts. Every account reported that the Giants second-year starter was thoroughly dominant. Then, the Giants lifted him. They didn’t let him go out to start the eighth. Predictably for a team in a severe struggle, the Giants’ bullpen surrendered the lead and the game.

 

What shocked me was the outrage from a segment of Giants fans. A colleague told me about booing at the game and hosting a radio show in San Francisco two   days later, I was stunned at the level of passionate unrest from fans that were in attendance.

 

It’s easy for me to be detached: I wasn’t there and didn’t pay for a ticket. My first response was two words: Mark Prior. Remember what happened to him. In fact, I found the brilliant New York Times piece by Buzz Bissinger on Kerry Wood from last summer in which research was documented about the danger of pitching while fatigued.

 

Tom Verducci’s SI piece on Lincecum from July reinforced that belief. Every piece of research available suggests that continued pitching while fatigued is the biggest single contributor to injury.

 

So I felt safe in the notion that the Giants, a team stumbling through this season, should proceed with extreme caution in the care and handling of their best asset.

 

But no said the fans. If anything, went one argument, this game was the highlight of a lost season and the Giants should have allowed Lincecum to continue on a special night. There was no evidence of fatigue. He was dominant in the seventh, the last inning he would pitch. The fans deserved to see him at least start the eighth, an argument that seems quite reasonable.

 

The passion of these arguments made an impression. The point has been made here often that starters are babied. But a wise friend commented, “you can’t turn life into 1965.” To change starting pitching, an organization would have to commit at its entry levels of minor league baseball to stretch out pitchers, a process that would take years to be realized on the big league level. We are beyond that hope so we must accept and work with the current structure.

 

Which means I keep going back to Tim Hudson, Mark Mulder and Barry Zito. Four years ago they were the best pitching trio in the game. Young and talented, they were the envy of all teams.

 

Four years later Hudson faces Tommy John surgery, Mulder has completely broken down and Zito is a shell of his young self. That’s the fragility of starting pitching so a team like San Francisco -- committed to rebuilding around a trio of starters in Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain and Jonathan Sanchez -- must be careful with their prime assets.

 

Already it is obvious that Sanchez, in his first year as a full-time starter, is out of gas. Cain has established his durability and that was the question that dogged Lincecum out of college and led to his fall to the 10th spot in the 2006 draft. He wants to answer this year by working 200 innings. The Giants have a serious decision ahead in monitoring his work as he approaches that number.

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Comments

If I pay a ticket to the game I would like them to try to win the game regardless of their record, so I'm sure thats where alot of fan disgust is, but I understand its a business and you have to protect your future first.  

This one loss doesn't equate the numbers for his career, which hopefully will bring alot more wins and keep the fans happy for many years.
As a Giants fan I am torn in two directions. We do want to win. We do know that we have to build. But to me I want the Giants to have some type of victory coming out of this season. So A Cy Young for Lincecum on a loser like SF is a great consolation prize. It is obvious that Tim "Franchise" (not freak) is pitching just as good if not better than Volquez on the Reds and Webb on the DBacks. If the Giants could muster more than 2 runs or a bull pen could hold a lead for more than a batter Lincecum would have been the first to 16 not Webb. Lincecum out dueled Webb already. So SF is in the tank this season before they go on a free agent spending spree then an obvious nod to Franchise is satisfying amidst such bad baseball by the Bay.
Let him pitch!  He's never had a history of fatigue, has thrown 200+ innings per year in college and has a motion that doesn't lend itself to injury.  Ted, I'm sorry, but I have to agree with Ralph B on this one.
I would agree with your logic about not being able to turn back the clock to 1965.  However, Lincecum does not fit into that category as he did not linger in the minors, having to work his way up "all those years".  He already had a history of throwing 150+ pitches a game in college, so his durability should be there.  Additionally, because of his unorthodox mechanics, he shouldn't fall under the same rule of thumb.  The babied principal is for pitchers that have to ice there arms, shoulders, or whatever.  Lincecum, again does not fall into that category.  i say they should have let him pitch and go off of his performance and how he feels.  Unfortunately, there will be games where he comes out early and we also have five man rotations and days off extc.. so those factors should balance out the one.
Dear Ted
The Giants are doing better without Barry Bonds. These young players are doing better.
The Giant's road back to being a winning team is going to be through developing their young pitchers.  I have been a Giant's fan since the '60's.  They always had good hitting and a few good pitchers but never a dominant pitching staff as a whole.  The Dodgers always had a good pitching staff and decent hitting and finished ahead of the Giants most of the time.

They have already proved how difficult it is to get good pitching via trade or Free Agency.

As an organization, their best move for the future is to pitch them conservatively, particularly in seasons like this one where they do not have a chance to finish anywhere near the playoffs.

I understand the frustration level.  Fans don't have much to cheer about in SF these days.  Forget about this year and look to the future.
apparently Lincecum is on the DL now anyway.
I got the impression from the SI article that Lincecum's unorthodox delivery is designed to lessen the physical stress of ordinary pitching styles. Wouldn't this allow him to throw beyond the 100-120 pitches ordinarily allowed to modern pitchers?
It was smart to pull Lincecum in the 7th.  You don't risk your future on a meaningless game this late in the season, and risk losing quite possibly the best young pitcher in the game today.  The Giants are done this season, and should be looking to pull up some Triple A pitchers for September and use Cain, Lincecum, and Sanchez sparingly the rest of the season, and get them ready for next season.  Now if they could only get some run support...
In a year with nothing about the team that is inspiring we Giants fans have Lincecum. Keeping him in there to try to get a CY Young is all we have. It is tough we want him for more than one year but we want him to win SOMETHING for us. Thankfully the Giants will have money to spend in the off season and hopefully will do so and get at least two power bats for that God awful pathetic offense.
Your right - you were not there, and you didn't pay for a ticket. With that said, the fans who were booing cant be looking past the end's of their noses. If they were, they would see that the season really is over already. We as Giants fan's need to be doing the same that management of the team is doing - looking to the future. We all know that those three pitchers you mentioned are the future of the entire orginazation, along the ever smiling Bowker, and the rest of the very, very young talent on the team.
But as every Owner, GM, Managaer, and Coach knows - it all starts with a "HEALTHY", and capable starting rotation.
Lincecum is amazing and why take chances with your star when your pennant chances are zero? Zito is a $26MM reminder! What a mistake that gamble was? Fans are shortsighted. They do pay a lot so they vote with their wallets and beer guts. Lincecum to a fan is like a gladiator in Rome. It's all about the show now!
A lot of sports fans of all types have a habit of "blowing with the wind" so to speak.
The Giants did the right thing.  Save the young talent. If you burn him out, he won't be any good for you to build your team around.  This year is a bust.
Interesting story about starting pitchers.  I read an interesting stat awhile back.  In 1950 the population of the US was 152 million.  There were just 16 major teams.  Most all of them use a 4 pitcher rotation meaning 45 plus starts a year.  Several pitchers (Robin Robbins is an excellent example) were pitching 300 innings a year.  Right now we have 30 major league teams and a population pushing 300 million.  In 1950 we were just starting to use all of that population after Jackie Robinson and full intergration.  Today we not only are using all the population base of the US but are actively scouting in other countries.  So the population base is larger.  All major league teams use 5 pitcher rotations with starters having just 34 starts at most.  Almost none of the starters do any relief work.  Yet we say that today's pitchers are less effective?  I can't understand that.  It can't be because of a smaller population (we have grown).  Yes there is one more starter per team, but each pitcher is pitching less innings per year.  
In the end only the 90's Braves staff had any success staying off of the disabled list plus were effective starters and relievers.  Why is that?  Is it only because of Leo Mazzone?  If so, then all the teams should adopt his training regime plus his requirement for throwing strikes.  Less balls means less pitches per games and hopefully less runs and more quality starts for the pitchers.
But the Giants are looking to shut down Lincecum like the Twins should have down with Liriano and the Cubs Woods?  Aren't the athletes better conditioned nowadays and supposed to be able to last longer?  200 innings is way less than Robin Robbins did and he did that almost the entire decade.  Warren Spahn pitched until he was 44 effectively.  Yes these are one-off pitchers and Nolan Ryan pitched into his mid-40's also with his heat.
What will it take for the pitching coaches to realize that 100 mile a hour fast ball pitchers spend time on the disabled list more often.  Slow them down a bit, get the ball in the strike zone and throw less pitches per game.


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