ABOUT AT BAT

MSNBC.com baseball analyst Ted Robinson gives his take on the hits and misses by players, managers, umpires and owners in Major League Baseball.

Robinson has an extensive background in covering the sport. He called the play-by-play on NBC's Major League Baseball Game of the Week telecasts from 1986-89. Additionally, he has been the lead play-by-play announcer for the Minnesota Twins, the television and radio play-by-play voice of the San Francisco Giants, and a member of the New York Mets broadcast team.



Cooperstown results raise questions

Posted: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 11:17 AM

Five quick hits on the Hall of Fame voting:

 

1. Justice was served for Goose Gossage, but Jack Morris failed to gain traction. It’s striking that 57 percent of the voters feel Morris unworthy. And it’s equally striking to me that Bert Blyleven garnered nearly 100 more votes than a year ago. I think Blyleven is a Hall of Famer, but on what basis could there possibly be that kind of vote discrepancy from one year to the next?

 

Blyleven won 33 more games than Morris, but it is rarely recognized that Morris started 158 fewer games than Blyleven. Here are the career winning percentages for four pitchers hoping to get to Cooperstown: Morris .577, Tommy John .555, Jim Kaat .544, and Blyleven .534. It is heartening to see Blyleven creep closer to election, but perplexing that Morris was sixth in the balloting in his ninth year of eligibility with 233 votes (42.9 percent).

 

2. Is Jim Rice to hitting as Orel Hershiser is to pitching? Now Orel fell off the Hall-of-Fame map while Rice will likely win election next year -- his final year on the ballot. Hershiser had a brief period of dominance combined with a memorable postseason, but his quality can’t overcome the lack of a Hall-of-Fame quantity number of wins. He had 204 victories.

 

Looking at Rice’s career, I was shocked to have my memory refreshed that he only played as many as 100 games in the field nine times. He lived on his bat, which makes his lack of benchmark Hall-of-Fame totals more important.

 

3. I still can’t understand or accept quota voting. Gossage fell 21 votes short last year and cleared the hurdle by 58 votes this year. How did that happen? I understand some voters can change their views or opinions over time, but that many in one year? It is impossible to dismiss the notion that many voters, in a year without a slam-dunk newcomer, decided they had to vote for at least one player likely to be inducted.

 

There should be no quota in the voting, either by means of a cap or a ceiling. Rather it should be standards that determine one’s vote. If someone reaches Hall-of-Fame standards one year, how can they not maintain that position in years to come? And the same is true for one who falls short.

 

4. Whither Tim Raines? His first year on the ballot brought a vote total (24.3 percent) that shocked many. I am trying to find a solid stat on which to base Raines’ case. Others have cited his .385 OBP as compared to Tony Gwynn's .388 and Rickey Henderson's .401, but I have trouble using that as a divining rod. Gwynn has the hits (3,141) as well as eight batting titles and five Gold Gloves. Henderson has 12 stolen base titles and 12 top-five OBP finishes. Raines has one batting title and four stolen base crowns as his “quality” numbers, but no other major awards. Could he be a case of what a prominent Hall of Fame candidate once told me of himself -- that he was a very good player, but Cooperstown is for great players?

 

5. Is personal bias still a factor? A longtime sportswriter suggested such to me after this year's results were released. Citing Morris and Rice as examples of players who the majority of writers just didn’t like (with some reason I am sure), he opined that those grudges still hold. Is the same true with Dave Parker, a candidate I emphasized last year?

 

Parker’s career arc bears much similarity to Rice's -- an early blast followed by a late resurgence, with the fielding edge to Parker. Yet, Parker is merely a blip in the voting. It’s hard not to think about my friend’s view when I see how little voting respect Parker has gained.

MAIN PAGE

Email this EMAIL THIS

Comments

I offer no solution but I do know that this system, like the BCS, is not workable. So what happens, players, teams and fans are made to suffer. And yet, five years from now, there will be very little change in either. People want to hold on to their perceived power.
Respectfully, Fred Lynn is in the Hall and he lost lots of seasons and games to injuries. Lynn was a nice player but was well protected by Rice. Together they were the original Big Daddy-Manny duo except Lynn was not as fierce a hitter as Manny, Big Daddy or Rice. So when you argue against Rice, I remind you that if the man he protected is in and that he terrified pitchers like few others in his time, how do you keep him out?

As for Morris, he was a horse who often was no better than a .500 pitcher with a high ERA at a time when when being .500 was not good and having an over 4.00 ERA was usually a ticket to the bullpen.

Blyleven was a good, not great pitcher. If you admit him, you need to add Camillo Pascual, a previous Twin pitcher with an equally devastating curve but who actually won games and had a low ERA.

Or maybe Frank Lary from Detroit.

Do Sutton was the cusp player for that era. 300 wins; pitched into his 40's lost a lot of games. Blyleven and Morris come up short by comparison.

And Rice--You have to look at him and watch how teams worked to cope with him to really appreciate what a  terror he was at the plate.

Like Jayson Stark pointed out, Raines has the highest SB percentage of all time, and led the NL in singles, doubles, triples and walks from 1982-88.  He's the best non-Ricky leadoff hitter ever, and he was truly a great player.

For the pitchers, you have to get over your love of wins and winning percentage.  Do you think Jack Morris's winning percentage might be at least slightly a reflection of the fact that he played for some very good teams?  Thankfully, many of the voters don't seem nearly as blinded by these arbitrary numbers.
I pretty much agree with everything you stated and especially the "personal bias" factor.  Mark McGwire was never proved guilty of any violation of the drug laws while he played the game.  But voters "personal bias/moral attitudes" will keep him from the Hall of Fame.  Same thing will happen to Bonds and Clemens.  Wrong, wrong, wrong.  
It is criminal that Alan Trammell, who was statistically every bit as good as Ozzie Smith defensively, and light-years ahead of Smith offensively is not in the Hall of Fame.

If Alan Trammell had been a Yankee, he'd have been a first ballot HOF'er.
Are we really using hits and batting tiles and Gold gloves to trump OBP.  Isnt the purpose of the game to get on base.  Tony Gwynn had 50 more Xbh in 400 more AB than Tim Raines.  Tim Raines had 50 more (singles + BB) also in 400 less AB.  That is amazingly similar.
As far as Gold Gloves, refer to Rafael Palmeiro's 1999 Season.  Tim Raines also had 811 SB, with an amazing success rate.  Raines also finished in the top-five in OBP six times.  Raines was a great player.
Your questions on how vote counts can change from year to year has one fairly simple answer.
The ballot is not the same this year as it was last year. Players have been added, players have been dropped. Any time a player gets into the Hall, that means at least 75 per cent of the voters now have to find another name to vote for.
Maybe a lot of last year's voters had Blyleven as their 11th choice, so this year he was their 10th pick.
I didn't follow baseball until we moved to the Twin Cities and since watching the Twins, whose color commentator IS Bert Blyleven, I have really garnered so much more about how the games works and how misleading stats can be. Games won? Wow, is the pitcher ever relying on his team for that stat. I've read up on Bert and his accomplishments and frankly, Bert belongs in the HOF. Not just for Bert, but all those who rightfully earned it, change the way voting works. As to Mark McGuire, if you weren't in front of Congress to "discuss the past," what were you doing there as you weren't a current baseball player? The past was the only thing you were called to Congress for. I truly hope you never get in.
The Hall of Fame is the highest individual honor a Major League player can ever achieve. Therefore, it should be reserved for those who were at the absolute pinnacle of the game. There should be two questions to answer when considering a player for induction: (1) did he have overwhelming lifetime numbers, or (2) did he dominate his era?

The first question is easier to answer, but it's the second that fuels the fun discussions. Ozzie Smith seemed like an obvious choice to me, but somebody like Orlando Cepeda sure doesn't. Neither does Morris or Trammel or even Tim Raines. Raines is interesting. My memory could be faulty here, but I don't remember people ever thinking of him as "dominating his era", although he was certainly a fine player. I know he spent a lot of years in Montreal, but people who know the game knew about him. I don't buy the argument that you have to play in New York to get recognition ... true baseball fans know who the best players are. Nonetheless, I just can't see Tim Raines as one of those at the "absolute pinnacle".

I agree totally with Ted on the quota thing. How absurd to think that *somebody*, anybody, has to be inducted every year. For that matter, I'd lean toward making it even harder to get in than it already is ... require 90% of the vote, not 75%. And shorten the eligibility to five years, not 15. How on earth can a player not be a Hall of Famer for 14 years, then suddenly become one in the 15th year?

Ok, all that aside ... I'm curious as to how many of the people who read/write in this space have ever gotten to visit Cooperstown? It's still on my list of lifetime goals ...
Hall of Fame standards state that "voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."  Sportsmanship and character both can be interpreted to reflect on the player's cooperation with the media.  Players who did not respect the media during their careers, just as Jim Rice, should not be elected to the HoF regardless of career statistics. Current players should take note of this and adjust their attitudes accordingly.
"Blyleven was a good, not great pitcher. If you admit him, you need to add Camillo Pascual, a previous Twin pitcher with an equally devastating curve but who actually won games and had a low ERA."

Pascual/Blyleven
Times in:
top 5 in ERA: 2-7
top 10 ERA: 4-10
top 5 Wins: 3-3
top 10 Wins: 4-6
top 5 strikeouts: 6-9
top 10 strikeouts: 8-14

Career Numbers
Pascual 174-170 3.63 ERA 2167 K in 2931 innings
Blyleven 282-250 3.31 ERA 3701 Ks in 4970 innings

How do you find these players comparable?
Dear Ted
I think Roger Maris should have got in this year. I also thought Curt Flood should have got in there too. They have been dead for years. The veterens committee should put them in now. Could you see that happening?
Fred Lynn is not in the HOF.....he does not even garner votes anymore. He had 3 great years and the rest were average or injury derailed. He was not even a factor in the voting.
The Cooperstown election process makes the "hanging chads" incident of Gore lore look like a seminar on ethics.  Those goons make the lobotomy lab look like TAG class. The decisions they make are so arbitrary and uninformed as to be entirely meaningless, thereby disgracing the institution they claim to defend so vigorously.  It's a shame that guys like Blyleven, Trammel, and McGwire aren't in.  I wasn't alive when Rice played, but these were the dominant players at their position for prolonged periods.  I don't know that these guys ever got a shred of bad press save for Mac's infamous reluctance to "talk about the past."  Trammel-Whitaker was an awesome combo, the best of the 80's.  The OZ may have been the premier SS, save Ripken, but Trammel's offense was amazing for the time.  


SEND A COMMENT

PLEASE READ: All comments must be approved before appearing in the thread; time and space constraints prevent all comments from appearing. We will only approve comments that are directly related to the blog, use appropriate language and are not attacking the comments of others.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):